But there are some sneaky issues that seem to have made their way into this new self-pub world. And it has been infecting my Twitter feed with the diehards on either side.
I didn't need to say anything until someone I respect started to get a little carried away. Now, she is pretty tied up in the traditional way of things, and much like me, has standards. **Note I did not say "high" standards, which most seem to think means unachievable.
No, much like me, she thinks that sentences need to flow well and have some sense of structure. We believe in proper grammar and spelling, plausible plot lines, proper transitions, and of course, showing and not telling. Unlike me, she wants to go traditional. So, you'd think that I would be at her throat when she makes her comments about the idiocy of self-pubbers. Nope. Because most of the time, she's right.
Hear me out. Yeah, she sounds just like 'em. But she is not them. She does not represent the Big 6. So why are we even having this debate amongst ourselves?
Why are we tearing down other authors out there because they believe in another system? I know people are tearing her down because she sounds like trad pub. Why does she sound like trad pub? Simply because she has (completely normal) standards and doesn't pat anyone else on the back.
Dear Self Pubbers:
Face it. Your work probably sucks.
I'll give you a minute to contemplate that.
Your work is most likely unreadable and a waste of money... I don't care how low you sell it for. You are bordering on the edge of being a junk car salesman. (See my comment below before you get angry.)
I remind myself of these facts everyday when I sit down to my WIP. I haven't pubbed yet. But, I know I could pub right now, and it would be a lot better than a lot of the crap out there. But that's not saying much.
So why are people doing it? See above picture... because they think it's the only way out. And it's career suicide. I like what Bill Maher said, "[Career] Suicide is man's way of telling God, 'You can't fire me- I quit.'" It's like all these new self-pubbers out there are trying to send traditional publishing some great message. I look at what Maher said, and I see a parallel quote there, something along the lines of, "Traditional publishing can't reject me, I'll self pub!" Yeah, but in reality, most of the time the big guys get the last laugh.
Granted, you can harass people's feeds and pay for ads, etc. That may get you some sales. But as of right now, there are probably only 3 self-pubbers that I would buy based on their name alone, and one of them is NOT Amanda Hocking.
There are, however, at least 10 people I am waiting to see their book published, some are self-pubs and some are trad pubs. And I will buy them as soon as they come out because I support them as writers. And trust me, if you alpha, beta, and edit the crap out of your work, it will eventually get there. It will get to the point where me and my fellow writer friends will not be wanting to scratch our eyes out.
 |
| This is a picture of Self-Pub Avenue |
In fact, I'm sure a lot of self pubbers have a case against this blog in some way or another. Instead of going off on a tirade, I'll host a challenge. If you have self-pubbed a book that you think is just ace, send me the title and your name. If it's in paperback, kudos to you for not just going ebook, but you'll need to send me a copy. I will do a free line crit. A free PUBLIC line crit. I'm not sure how long it would be, but generally I stop when my eyes are rolling every other line. I am not nice in my crits. As a matter of fact, I'll open it up to be critiqued by my little piece of the writer world, too. Just to be nice.
Wow! Gotta love a morning rant. lol. Personally, I think the argument is a waste of time, similar to the second most argued point amongst writers that I see on twitter: to MFA or not to MFA. Everyone pursues one path or another for their own reasons, and who am I to judge their decisions?
ReplyDeleteYes, I am one of those who’s guilty for having been sucked into the tired, old debate or self publishing vs. traditional publishing. I’ve written posts and ranted about the growth of the substandard self-published books. In a way, it came off as if I was trashing the indie industry as a whole when my intention was to point out the negative effects those books had on the industry.
ReplyDeleteI had to defend myself against some of the indie writers who accused me of being a pawn/spy/puppet for the trad. pub. industry. Some even went as far as starting a thread or commented in Amazon, their blogs, and even on my blog with their personal attacks. To me, their anger is clearly misdirected and childish. But they think any negative comments on a single self-published book or an indie author, is an attack on them or their industry. It’s not.
My point is, and always has been, that some writers are driven by greed or ignorance to publish books that are clearly not ready or deserved to be published regardless of the route. And those books are ruining the reputation of their own industry. Some of the dearest people in my life are indie authors. Although I have a full-time job in the trad. editing world, my future goal is to have a successful editing business online where I have the freedom to choose which clients I work for. So, the last thing I want to do is become the enemy of my potential customers.
As a writer and an editor, I hate the thought of the literary world turning into a giant manufacturing industry of bad, 99-cent books. I want the literary world to thrive in every way. The growth of indie pub is supposed to bring to the public the works that trad. pub. would normally turn down because of its low commercial value. The emergence of ebook trend is opening the doors for both self and trad. published authors to reach a whole new base of readers. It’s about time that indie writers think long and hard about what they put out there for the sake of their own careers and the sake of the very industry they want to help flourish.
There are so many ugly and dishonest practices being perpetrated by some of the indie authors who are acting like big bullies to attack anyone who disagrees with them. I don’t want anything to do with those people. What I want to do is help understand others that indie publishing is not a place to dispose your trash that has been turned down by the trad. Have some respect for yourself and the literary industry. Learn to persevere and learn to make sacrifices for your art. Simply put, publish books that meet the standards and morally justify charging 99 cents or 99 dollars.
No more childish name callings directed toward editors, agents, or traditional publishing industry. Let’s just focus on writing better books. After all, that’s what writers are supposed to do. Write.
Yes, I am one of those who’s guilty for having been sucked into the tired, old debate or self publishing vs. traditional publishing. My blog posts and Twitter rants about the growth of the substandard self-published books are well-known. I could see how my messages could be misconstrued as an attack on the indie industry as a whole when my intention was to point out the negative effects those books had on the industry.
ReplyDeleteI had to defend myself against some of the indie writers who accused me of being a pawn/spy/puppet for the trad. pub. industry. Some even went as far as starting a thread or commented in Amazon, their blogs, and even on my blog with their personal attacks. In my opinion, their anger is misdirected and immature. But they think any negative comments on a single self-published book or an indie author, is an attack on them or their industry. It’s not.
My point is, and always has been, that some writers are driven by greed or ignorance to publish books regardless of the quality. And those books are responsible for ruining the reputation of their own industry. Some of the dearest people in my life are indie authors. Although I have a full-time job in the trad. editing world, my goal is to have a successful editing business online where I have the freedom to choose which clients I work for. I also wish to be published someday. So, the last thing I want to do is become the enemy of my potential customers and my colleagues.
As a writer and an editor, I hate the thought of the literary world turning into a giant manufacturing industry of bad, 99-cent books. I want the literary world to thrive in every way. The indie pub supposed to bring to the public works that trad. pub. would normally turn down because of their low commercial value. The emergence of ebook trend is opening the doors for both self and trad. published authors to reach a whole new base of readers. It’s time they think about what they put out there for the sake of their own careers and the sake of the very industry they want to help flourish.
There are so many ugly and dishonest practices being perpetrated by some indie authors, who react bullishly toward anyone who disagrees with them. That’s not going to stop me from speaking my mind. Indie publishing is not a place to dump their poorly written, error-filled books that had been turned down by the trad. Have some respect for yourself, self-publishing industry, and ultimately, the literary world. Learn to persevere and learn to make sacrifices for your art. Simply put, publish books that meet the standards and morally justify charging readers money.
No more childish name callings or the blame game directed at editors, agents, or traditional publishing industry. Let’s stop arguing about which route or format is the best. Let’s stop the fight of us vs. them. How about we focus on writing better books? After all, that’s what writers are supposed to do. Write.
Yes, I am one of those who’s guilty for having been sucked into the tired, old debate or self publishing vs. traditional publishing. My blog posts and Twitter rants about the growth of the substandard self-published books are well-known. I could see how my messages could be misconstrued as an attack on the indie industry as a whole when my intention was to point out the negative effects those books had on the industry.
ReplyDeleteI had to defend myself against some of the indie writers who accused me of being a pawn/spy/puppet for the trad. pub. industry. Some even went as far as starting a thread or commented in Amazon, their blogs, and even on my blog with their personal attacks. In my opinion, their anger is misdirected and immature. But they think any negative comments on a single self-published book or an indie author, is an attack on them or their industry. It’s not.
My point is, and always has been, that some writers are driven by greed or ignorance to publish books regardless of the quality. And those books are responsible for ruining the reputation of their own industry. Some of the dearest people in my life are indie authors. Although I have a full-time job in the trad. editing world, my goal is to have a successful editing business online where I have the freedom to choose which clients I work for. I also wish to be published someday. So, the last thing I want to do is become the enemy of my potential customers and my colleagues.
As a writer and an editor, I hate the thought of the literary world turning into a giant manufacturing industry of bad, 99-cent books. I want the literary world to thrive in every way. The indie pub supposed to bring to the public works that trad. pub. would normally turn down because of their low commercial value. The emergence of ebook trend is opening the doors for both self and trad. published authors to reach a whole new base of readers. It’s time they think about what they put out there for the sake of their own careers and the sake of the very industry they want to help flourish.
There are so many ugly and dishonest practices being perpetrated by some indie authors, who react bullishly toward anyone who disagrees with them. That’s not going to stop me from speaking my mind. Indie publishing is not a place to dump their poorly written, error-filled books that had been turned down by the trad. Have some respect for yourself, self-publishing industry, and ultimately, the literary world. Learn to persevere and learn to make sacrifices for your art. Simply put, publish books that meet the standards and morally justify charging readers money.
No more childish name callings or the blame game directed at editors, agents, or traditional publishing industry. Let’s stop arguing about which route or format is the best. Let’s stop the fight of us vs. them. How about we focus on writing better books? After all, that’s what writers are supposed to do. Write.
I having been following Sirra recently, and would like to confirm that she is sensible. Don't agree with every word she writes, but she certainly thinks before she writes, and does not rant.
ReplyDeleteYes, there are plenty of poor quality self-pubbed books out there, but there are also more than enough traditionally published ones that are a waste of paper.
The main reason I turned my back on the traditional industry is that it has always turned its back on me. At first I thought my writing was the problem, but as time passed I realised the traditional gatekeeping was swamped. There are heaps of good books available from unknown authors, so why should mine succeed? I'm not a sports star, politician, or the publisher's niece.
Fortunately, I can now self pub. I do ebooks and paperbacks (necessary for marketing but not profitable), and I am in the black. Not rich (yet) but progressing.
I am looking forward to the day when the economics allow me to send a manuscript to Sirra and get it properly edited.
As per others, I think rants against trade publishing are unbecoming and ultimately pointless. The idea is to get more books into the hands of readers, and the method of distribution is irrelevant. Do whatever works for you, and don't try and convert everyone else. My blog has been going for some years now, and I've posted many times on publishing. There are also publishing articles on my website, but I don't think I've ever said 'this is what you should do'. Make your own minds up, people!
ReplyDeletePS If you're serious about the public line crit of a self-pubbed book, I'm willing to post you a copy of my latest. (Hal Junior: The Secret Signal by Simon Haynes.) I'm very happy with the way it turned out, but there's always room for improvement.
I'm new to your blog (Twitter sent me to Sirra's comment) so I don't have a case against it. I'm too laid back for that sort of thing. If you're after a self-pubbed book from someone ranting about your blog then I don't qualify.
I agree the debate is a waste of time. The debate shouldn't be about the method of publishing but the QUALITY of the end product. Despite the fact that invariably some errors will slip through in traditionally publishing, there is still a standard of some kind that publishers enforce on books they put out. Most self-publishers do not seem to hold themselves to some kind of standard. I've heard arguments that they can't afford editing etc. Do you really think people want to pay for a sub-standard product? Having a self-publishged book edited professionally automatically justifies the jump from $0.99 price point to $2.99 in my opinion.
ReplyDeleteWhich brings me to price. How much time does an author put into a $0.99 book? Months, maybe years, even without proper beta feedback and editing. It's just time consuming and laborious. What does a song sell for on itunes? Not sure in the USA, but in Australia $1.49. How much time to write a song? My husband, who writes music, says maybe 20 minutes. There's probably a bit more in but I think we can unequivocally say it's a lot less than a book, for more money. I'm not factoring in publication/recording time here for either books or music.
To some extent, the price of a product says something about it's quality I believe. It's not always true that dearest is best, but there is definitely truth to the saying you get what you pay for.
I don't care if you publish indie or traditional. Just publish something worth reading!
..well stated, both avenues have their pluses and minuses and i'm glad u quote Bill Maher, one of my favs.... let the masses keep chattering on and throwing mud at each other...i'll be spending my time creating the best product possible and it will be a winner
ReplyDeleteI started reading thinking this would be a sensible post about how the trad pub vs. self/indie pub fight isn't an either/or choice, and about the importance of professional quality no matter which route you choose. It started out well enough, but derailed right about the time I got to the bold red type. I don't understand the purpose of beginning a post by stating that everyone has their opinion on the matter and you could care less, only to later lump all self pubbers into one group and tell them they suck.
ReplyDeleteI find that just as counterproductive to the publishing discussion as the knee-jerk reactions you mentioned against your friend (who I'm guessing was Sirra?)on Twitter. Being derogatory and/or inflammatory doesn't solve the problem on either end. I follow Sirra on Twitter, and I agree with you, she's pretty much always spot-on. But if her tweets had you pausing because you felt they were veering too far into the negative end, just what is it you thought you would accomplish with a "dear self pubbers, your writing probably sucks" letter?
I'm not denying that there's a lot of trash out there in self pub land. But that doesn't mean there aren't good books there as well. There are some authors who have foregone the traditional route and are building a readership and making money, and trying to do it the right way.
You turn right back around toward the end of the post, stating that "if you alpha, beta, and edit the crap out of your work, it will eventually get there. It will get to the point where me and my fellow writer friends will not be wanting to scratch our eyes out." So... everyone (EVERY? ONE?) who has self pubbed to date probably sucks, but it IS possible to put a great product out there if they just work a little harder? The advice that editing, editing, editing is key in being successful (whether trad or self pubbed) is good advice - but do you honestly expect many self pubbers to hear you after you've already told them their books are probably trash?
Even more perplexing is your own admission that you plan to self pub (at least that's how I read this statement: "Unlike me, she wants to go traditional.") and that you plan on purchasing some soon to be released books by writers you support, some which will be self pubbed. Do you see how that sounds like you saying "Self pubbers, your writing sucks. That is, unless you're me or one of my friends, because me and my friends know that you need to do the hard work to produce something worth reading. Oh and by the way, if you think you're good enough, give me a copy of your book and I'll tell you, because you should care what I think." I'm not saying that's what you mean, but it sure is how it sounds.
I don't mean to rant on your rant lol. I just think it's a shame that in a post that could have been productive and offered sound advice, it instead became the same type of negative commentary you claimed to be bothered by. When we have Eisler and Konrath and the like engaging in public flamewars with readers and writers, I was really hoping to find some place where the discussion rose above the current back-and-forth of the diehard supporters on either side, but feel like I found more of the same.
"Dear Self Pubbers:
ReplyDeleteFace it. Your work probably sucks.
I'll give you a minute to contemplate that.
You're work is most likely unreadable and a waste of money... I don't care how low you sell it for. You are bordering on the edge of being a junk car salesman."
Anyone catch the error? "You're" should be "Your."
"It will get to the point where me and my fellow writer friends will not be wanting to scratch our eyes out."
Catch that one?
"...me and my fellow writer friends will not be wanting to..." Really? "...my fellow writer friends and I will not want to..." would work.
"No, much like me, she thinks that sentences need to flow well and have some sense of structure. We believe in proper grammar and spelling, plausible plot..."
Maybe this blogger should study what she (or he) seems to boast about expertise in, instead of bashing people who can obviously write better than she/he does. I will self-publish, and I can see by this blog that I'm a much better writer than this self-important blogger.
Much love, sweetie!
Heh. I think my book is pretty good, but like so many naive others I assumed that it was 'done' just because it didn't have any major typos or grammatical errors. And yeah, while I'm still pretty proud of it and a lot of people have gone out of their way to tell me they enjoyed it, I've also gotten a few complaints about the pacing and some of the description. And the thing is:
ReplyDeleteThose are the kinds of things a good editor would catch.
What a lot of self-pubbed people don't seem to realize is that editing isn't just about fixing typos. It's also about pace, characterization, voice, description, and all the little things that can turn a merely good story into a GREAT one.
And yeah, I've sold a few books, but who knows, maybe I could've had a breakout hit if I'd just made that one-time initial investment of hiring an editor.
Well, that and actually having a decent cover.
Most of my feelings are stated above by Ashley and other commenters. Andy summed it up with:
ReplyDeleteWhat a lot of self-pubbed people don't seem to realize is that editing isn't just about fixing typos. It's also about pace, characterization, voice, description, and all the little things that can turn a merely good story into a GREAT one.
A brave post - but a worthy one
Oh guys, thanks for the comments. Even the negative ones.
ReplyDeleteThe You're/Your was a pretty bad one, I'll give you that. Granted, I didn't edit this BLOG the way I do other fiction. I'm not trying to sell you anything here.
My point was that by admitting that our writing sucks would (by most accounts) make us eat some humble pie and listen to those around us. I've seen too much ego stroking. And yes, I think that by having a moment to "wake up" when you sit down to type would make the world of difference.
It's not just self-pubs, it's writers in general. If we recognize the fact that we probably suck, we will constantly look and learn ways to improve.
Anyone who talks to me AT ALL or has had me crit anything knows that I believe in writers. I support writers. I believe that every writer has a chance to be great. I really, REALLY do.
However, the majority of what I've read... well, it's just not that great. Maybe it's because I've not been reading the right ones.
And yes, I will purchase writers I support. I support them because I know how much time (and money) they put into editing. And to be honest, I DO NOT CARE if people get turned off because I say something sucks. I don't say it lightly. People (and I'm not insinuating that anyone commenting here should) with a touch of humility would learn something from that. Oh, and as a side note Anon, I did mention that I am not perfect, that I am also reminding myself that most self-pubbers suck. But, I won't forever. It is something that everyone can achieve, if they FIRST admit that they need work.
I don't debate it because it's useless to do so. I'm traditionally published, but by a small press, and the only difference really is that I have three editors, an artist, and a part-time publicist on my side to help me out. I'm still forced to do most of the plugging myself, which I don't like doing, but sometimes self-publishing can help writers who are diffident about sending their work out due to fear of rejection, etc.
ReplyDeleteI was published in a few fantasy mags before I sent out my first novel. It got positive responses from publishers and agents, but I had no feedback from readers. I therefore self-published only to see what readers thought. People seemed to like the book, so I removed it from the shelves and chose the publisher that I felt was best for me. However, I did take a month to rewrite many parts of the book. I knew it needed work and was not afraid to delete the entire thing if only to make it better. Often, books are rejected not because they are terrible but because they just need a little more to make their books the best they can be.
My whole scruple with this is the term "Indie". Indie authors used to mean authors published by small press, like me. Now, every self-published author calls himself an Indie Author. I'm not saying he doesn't deserve to be recognized, but self-publishing is becoming known for unedited work and I do not want my work to be categorized as the same. True, my publisher is small, but they work hard to provide readers with a quality product. My other issue is that certain organizations will promote unedited self-published books for exorbitant amounts of money and help them become bestsellers regardless of content. This is not only unethical, but also it cheats readers into buying books of poor quality (not in terms of story, just in terms of editing and formatting). Small publishers are now throwing up their hands because they cannot compete with hundreds of self-published authors banning together to promote each other's books without having read them.
I'm pleased to see that most of the comments were fair and intelligent. Also, I appreciate the nice comments that were said about me. Yes, we can agree to disagree at times, but we don't have to be mean. I do agree that Ash (blogger) came off a bit harsh, but it is her personal blog where she feels that she has the right to rant. I'm pretty sure she didn't intend to insult all indie writers as she is one herself.
ReplyDeleteAnon. Yes, she did have a few typos. It happens to the best of us. However, claiming that you are a better writer by pointing out a few typos publicly on her blog isn't helping your argument. Especially when you do it anonymously and sign off by calling her "sweetie." That was very condescending and sexist.
I kinda visualized getting a little CindyLouWho pat on the head with the "Sweetie" comment.
ReplyDeleteYou're right. I did not mean to be condescending at all. Thanks for clarifying for me, Sirra. I certainly don't mean all.
I love the red. It's the red an editor would have marked all over the manuscript had most of these self pubbed novels been properly worked on.
ReplyDeleteI'm tired of having to pull punches and pretend. Most of the .99 cent novels are so terrible they actually make you dumber if you are unfortunate enough to read the entire novel.
If some are offended by your tone, it's undoubtedly because they published one of these assaults on literature and want to make themselves feel better.
Thank you Ashley for having the courage to say what so many feel.
To the great majority of wannabe writers: most of you will not make it. Most of you need to take up another hobby and not poison the tree and ruin the image of self-pub with your unpolished novel.
Ashley, this post raises an issue a lot of us feel strongly about.
ReplyDeleteI've been traditionally published, and also self-published an e-book.
As I keep repeating to myself: the most important thing is to keep writing, improve my craft, and keep submitting for publication. A writer writes, and then hopes for publication: each rejection is a spur to write more and write better. After all, an established writer is no different from an unpublished one (at least in one aspect): both aspire to write better and reach a bigger audience every day.
That said, I think I’ll epub some work as well, mostly because it is fun, and a good way to interact with writer-friends and readers.
My e-book was an experiment of sorts: I wanted to learn what this new business of e-books was all about, because as writers I think we should not ignore the flux in the industry. I continue to learn more about ebooks, marketing, and publishing each day, and I don’t think that is a bad thing.
So, as you have said, it is not about sides at all...it is about writing the best we can, getting it edited, published, it is the quality that matters, not the channel.
Here here! This is an excellent post that looks at the crux of the debate.
ReplyDeleteI agree. When I first shifted from the traditional paradigm to the new system, I was all rah rah indie publishing! But now I see it as one path among others, and I will probably not stay exclusively indie forever (though I don't foresee a time when I never have anything self-published).
ReplyDeleteThe whole indie vs. traditional debate is counterproductive and destructive to writers. If you really want to stand up against a broken system, join together with writers of all kinds; we're stronger together than we are apart. And honestly, the worst publishers are going to go under anyway, so your time would be much better spent improving your craft and building your career.
I'm a traditionally published nonfiction author, with smatterings of fiction.
ReplyDeleteI worked very hard on my writing for many years. But nothing I wrote before 1995 or so deserved to be published. It was that poor. Today, I'm very glad that none of those manuscripts made it to the public. Even if I later withdrew them from the market, they would rise to embarrass me later.
But in 1994, I thought that what I'd written was pretty good, and deserved to be published.
I'm considering indie publishing things that I cannot sell my publisher. They're books that I want to write, or that I think are important. I cannot sell my publisher a book on, say, resources for people with Angelman's Syndrome in Michigan. The market is just too small. But it's important.
Anything I publish independently will be edited and copyedited.
And if my experienced editor tells me that something is sewage, I will listen.
The bloggers and commenters might be interested in K.W. Jeter's guest post today (11-1-11) on Dean Wesley Smith's blog. It addresses, among other things, the question of whether the editing likely to be provided by a traditional publishing house these days is likely to be materially better than what experienced beta readers can provide.
ReplyDeleteAs for your challenge, I'll take it, if I can qualify without thinking my just-self-published science fiction novel is perfect. I've been writing for a living for decades, but I'm new at fiction, and I'm still learning my craft. I sought out professional editors -- but their sample edits did not seem to me to be an improvement. I took (some) advice from beta readers, and edited and re-edited over many months, before publishing Twin-Bred. Some reviewers have identified flaws that I also saw, but did not know (yet) how to fix. Others have been comfortingly enthusiastic.
The book is available for Kindle and Nook. (It's also a POD paperback.) Have at it!
Karen A. Wyle
www.KarenAWyle.net
Holy mother of all the baby kitties, WHO CARES? How about this--do what makes you happy and makes you feel proud. Period. Someday, we'll all be worm food and this tit-for-tat, trad vs. self debate won't matter except that the extra muscles we build in our fingers from arguing about it will give the bugs a little extra sinewy num-nums.
ReplyDeleteEveryone on both sides makes good points in all the 8 gajillion similar arguments on the interwebs. But good points only matter in as much as they affect how YOU FEEL about what YOU DO.
Self and trad pubbers need to take their own pride, fear and insecurity out of the situation and stop the debate. Just do what fulfills you, however you need to do it and make your life WORTH SOMETHING before you croak.
*I use "you" to discuss the collective, not any individual poster or commenter.
This is a GREAT post.
ReplyDeleteWriting novels is HARD.
I've sample-grabbed dozens of self-pubbed novels since I got a kindle a year ago and I don't think I went on to buy a single one . . . granted I'm paying most attention to writers who, like me, are grubbing around on the ground floor. But it's still a bit disconcerting to realize how much is being self-pubbed that really isn't very good.
As for your offer to do a public crit -- I almost decided to pass -- that how much it scares me!
But I've decided that I *am* going to self-pub, and if I'm going to self-pub, I need to face the consequences.
So call this a character-building exercise...
Kirsten Mortensen
Can Job
(ebook only for now)
I agree, except that not every single self-pubbed novel is trash. Never say never, y'know? I've been reading some really excellent stuff lately.
ReplyDeleteI'd love to take your challenge. If you want the print copy, I'll send you one. If you want the ebook, I'll give you a free coupon for Smashwords.
My book is not "great." Neither are most of the traditionally published books out there. But I have no problem believing my book is pretty darn good, while admitting it could be better. It can ALWAYS be better.
The book is The Time Travel Journals: Shipbuilder, and my name is Marlene Dotterer.
@Karen, thanks for stopping by. I think my favorite thing you said was, "Others have been comfortingly enthusiastic." That is what I want to see.
ReplyDeleteEnthusiasm. Enthusiasm for writing and for good storytelling.
When I posted that challenge, it was to arrogant people who think they know best, while their novel is crap. I should have known none of them would be brave enough to take it.
I am going to have a list to read. And, guess what, I'm really excited! The point is the step up and admit there's room for improvement. There is ALWAYS room for improvement. I am so happy to hear other authors out there acknowledging this. I was waiting for the jerk to come along and say, "My book is perfect, I DARE you to find something wrong with it." I should have known better. Thank you for reinstalling my faith, guys. :)
ReplyDeleteI wrote a really, good novel
ReplyDeleteThe publishers did not marvel
The agents seemed to be aloof
You know, my novel is not a goof
They tell me that suicide is ahead
If I self-publish I’m as good as dead
If I don’t put my story in print
My writing will become extinct
I’ll wonder all my life, what if
I didn’t listen to their verdict
The hell with the crusty naysayer
My novel will be in print forever
The first iron rule of all publishing whether self or trad is "Write a good book." Everything else is fluff. Most self published authors break that rule. Great promotion and a cheap price will not scotch tape the rule back together. It's tough to find a self-published author who isn't overpriced even when the book is free. (But readers do seem to have an uncanny knack for finding the good stuff.)
ReplyDeleteThat said, I'm entirely self published. You are SO getting a copy of one of my books. I write in several genres, so pick one and I'll send you a paper copy:
http://www.coganbooks.net
I know all parents think their own babies are cute but I'm pretty confident my books don't suck.
Hi - Has anyone taken you up on the challenge?
ReplyDelete@Susan -- re --
ReplyDelete"Most self published authors break that rule."
I have yet to meet anyone who's said "well, my book rots but what they hey, I'm going to pub it anyway."
IMO a lot of self-pubbed authors just can't tell their books are junk...it *is* a matter of "my baby is cute."
And yes, ultimately it's readers who serve as our juries. But at what point do you know your novel has gotten a genuine thumbs down? If it isn't selling 100 copies/week six months after you pubbed it, is it because the novel is no good or because nobody's found it yet?
There's no way to tell.
Self-pubbing probably selects for the bullheaded . . .
To date, I have: 1) Sampled roughly 150 self-pubbed eBooks; 2) Found 3 I thought worth buying; 3) Been disappointed by 2 of them.
ReplyDeleteCan self-pubbed authors create great works? Yes, of course. The problem is that most don't spend the time, sweat and money to do so.
In other words, they're not professional. They haven't properly trained themselves, or they've aligned themselves with the wrong individuals, or taken shortcuts in a rush to market, or deluded themselves about not needing a qualified editor, or all of the above.
They are, however, GREAT at rationalizing their choices.
It doesn't have to be that way. Those indie authors who do it right will succeed in the long run (I define success as making a living at it). And they will be few.
@Lane I found your line, "They are, however, GREAT at rationalizing their choices." Unfortunately, I see that most people on here are relatively kind in opting their books up for the challenge... and are not really trying to rationalize. I guess it's a wait and see to what I (and others who choose to comment) have to say about the work once it is publicly critiqued. I know others who have had your experience, and I hate it for you. On the same hand, as writers, we have a hard time as well finding the "qualified editor". Finding an editor is also like a relationship hunt. Actually, it's not LIKE a relationship hunt, it is a relationship hunt. It's about finding someone that you mesh with and are professionally compatible with...someone who will see your work for what it is, and help it grow. Sometimes that can be harder than finding an agent.
ReplyDelete@katjordan If you read through the comments, you will see a few nice authors who have admitted imperfection but are accepting my challenge. I will read, I will crit. My intention was to find the jerk who thought their prose was perfect. But alas, I've got wonderful readers. :)
ReplyDelete@Kirsten You're right. You are unlikely to find a writer who has said that their book sucks, but choose to pub anyway. I have (and I know there's GOT to be other people who have) read a friends work and said, "Hey, slow down. I don't think it's quite ready." And then the friend thinks they are getting attacked and publishes anyway. I've read quite a few books that I thought had A LOT of potential, but were merely not executed well enough. What I hate about self publishing right now is that there isn't someone to go to right now and say, "Hey, is this good enough?" I've heard great things about my book and I've had others rip into it. Is this a genre difference? I honestly don't know.
ReplyDeleteI will continue to work on it until I feel it's good enough. Then, I'll send it back out to my beta's and see if they think it's good enough. Then, I'll send it to an editor, and see if he/she thinks it's good enough. I just hope that none of those levels of self pubbing fail me.
What I'm irritated with is that self pubbers seem to not listen to those around them. Humility and humble pie are some of the best tools a writer can have.
" I hate the thought of the literary world turning into a giant manufacturing industry of bad, 99-cent books. ..."
ReplyDeleteI hate the idea of the literary world turing into a giant manufacturing industry of Snooki clones.
As for the argument that self-publishers aren't "professional", I suggest that you might want to meet Joe Konrath, Kristine Kathryn Rusch, Dean Wesley Smith, Ruth Harris, Bob Mayer, or a bunch of others. Or ones who previously went the small publisher route, as I did, before indie publishing. And some who had never published before but worked hard at learning the craft such as Victorine Lieske.
No, I'm not taking your "challenge". First because my novel was professionally edited before I published it as many self-published authors do, and second why should I? I'll take my kudos from my legitimate readers, thanks, who go out and buy my novels. Besides which, anyone who titles a post "self-publish suicide" has an axe to grind.
I don't have to prove anything to you, just to my readers.
Perfect? Well, no novel is perfect. Anyone who claims that their work is perfect, including Big 6 authors, is deluded.
The gatekeeper for indies is reader. Good enough for me. I don't need your validation or a big corporation's.
Sure, I'll take your challenge.
ReplyDeleteNot because I think my book is perfect, or even close, but because I would love to get another opinion on it. (And I want to show off the cover, it is stunning.)
https://www.smashwords.com/books/view/72874
My email is kjordan@bbtel.com I will send anyone who asks the code for it - or will email a copy.
Amazing post.
ReplyDeleteAnd I think the problem with self-pubbed authors not killing their own career is they kill every other self-pubbed authors career. Because right now there is no good way to sort through the crap to find the gem without actually digging into the poo. (Mainly because of the prominence of 'fake' and dis-honest 5 star reviews)
So when authors add to the pile of poo with their own poo, well it just makes it harder to sort. I for one am not getting my hands dirty anymore. It sucks.
@J.R. I think you missed some things. And you're probably not the only one. I don't have an axe to grind. I don't think my word is final or that anyone needs my approval. I set the challenge out for people who thought they had it all perfect NOT for people who are willing to admit that it needs work.
ReplyDeleteI really was fishing for some crappy writing so that I could show others what I'm talking about. But, really... REALLY I did it so that people wouldn't come commenting without being willing to back up their statements, ie, "My book is just as good as traditional; they just missed it." I've heard that from at least 3 authors directly, and their books sucked.
I also agree with you. There are some self pubbers out there worth reading. I'm not handing out validation here. I'm also not looking to tear anyone to shreds.
But, as a side note, I will mention that writers read as well. Just because I write does not mean I don't read. That's a lesson in Writing 101, read and write constantly. I don't think just because I write I am an illegitimate reader. Really, what is a legitimate reader? As for the title of the blog, that's mentioned in Blogging 101... come up with a catchy title. ;)
Anyone who interacts with me knows that I do my best to help in anyway.
Btw, DG, nifty poem. That's pretty cute. :)
ReplyDelete@Michael Yes! Very concisely said, too! I have a post about that coming too. Those stupid 5 star reviews...
ReplyDeleteI do know that there are some really great indie books out there. They're self-pubbed and they're quality.
ReplyDeleteI have a Nook, but I like to do paper edits. All who have said they'd like the crit, please DM me on Twitter @AEWrites for my email so you can send me paper copies.
ReplyDelete@Simon Haynes - I looked and I saw three free titles from you, and I saw the Hal Spacejock series...but no Hal Junior?
@Karen A. Wyle - I've bought yours via Nook.
@Kirsten Mortensen - I've bought yours via Nook. Did you know that two copies show up in the list?
@katjordan - I've bought yours via Nook.
@Susan Brassfield Cogan - Is the only book you have on Nook the condensed Moby Dick? Okay, found The Book of Poisons.
Did I miss anyone? I would really like to get paper versions as I like to use a pen and draw arrows. :)
Hi - don't forget people can't DM you on twitter unless you're following them.
ReplyDeleteRe my titles, there are 3 or 4 shorts (all free), four Spacejock novels (first one free) and the self-pubbed Hal Junior which is the book I'm offering: print here http://www.amazon.com/dp/187703407X/ and ebook here: http://www.smashwords.com/books/view/90125
I can get Hal Jnr to you several ways. Easiest way is if you add the paperback to an Amazon wishlist, and then post the link to the wishlist so I can order it for you. Same might work for others here too (paperbacks, not ebooks)
Otherwise I'll need a postal address.
Either way you're welcome to contact me here: spacejock at gmail c o m
@AEWrites: here is my page on B&N Nook:
ReplyDeletehttp://www.barnesandnoble.com/s/susan-cogan?keyword=susan+cogan&store=ebook
I'm also on Smashwords:
https://www.smashwords.com/profile/view/CoganBooks
all the short stories are free and all the novels are .99 (for a while). Let me know which one you'd like and I'll send you a coupon.
@Susan, I have Book of Poisons already. :)
ReplyDelete@Simon - I will purchase the book via Barnes & Noble online. I have a membership, therefore, the shipping is free.
I don't mind buying books, especially with as nice as you guys have been. By the end of today, I will have everyone's book either on my Nook or ordered. :)
"and not one of them is NOT Amanda Hocking"
ReplyDeleteRussian is the only language that I know of where double negatives are permitted. As you are putting yourself forward as a paragon of linguistic skill and offering your services as a gatekeeper of literary quality, perhaps you could clarify the meaning of this sentence.
Is Amanda Hocking actually three people?
Is this a clever play on the trinity?
Yours truly,
A writer who sucks.
@A.G. I would sincerely appreciate if you are going to point stuff out like that, that you read the following comments so that I don't have to repeat myself or others who have commented.
ReplyDeleteI do appreciate you pointing that out. Thank you. I also appreciate that you did not choose to be anonymous. I appreciate a person who can speak their mind. However, this is a blog. Once again, a blog. I pointed out my purpose in earlier comments.
"I don't mind buying books, especially with as nice as you guys have been."
ReplyDeleteCool! That's very good of you.
Now I just have to find 25,000 more blogs to comment on (nicely) and I'll have myself a bestseller ;-)
Lol. I should have just told people that I'd buy their books if they accepted my challege. ;)
ReplyDeleteI'm not sure if you got mine. I left a comment a several days ago, but didn't see my name on your list. So I'm just checking.
ReplyDeleteThe book is at Smashwords, http://www.smashwords.com/books/view/84342, or Amazon for print. That link is crazy-long, so I'll give you the book title: The Time Travel Journals: Shipbuilder.
@Marlene Thanks for checking back in. I have it now. :)
ReplyDeleteAE, This thread on Amazon happened to catch my eye this evening.
ReplyDeletehttp://amzn.to/qriJJv
The title is "How to Avoid Indie Authors."
Bottom line: the READERS are getting ticked off by the sheer number of poorly written, self-pubbed books -- and that' something that ought to scare us all, because many of them want Amazon (and B&N) to get rid of indie books altogether.
It's a noise issue -- there are just so many bad indie books that readers are overwhelmed. And they *are* changing their buying behavior as a result . . .
Here's a taste:
* When Amazon opened up self-publishing for the kindle, everyone and their dog has suddenly become an "author," and every rejected manuscript resurrected as a kindle "book." I have no problem with amateurs posting their stuff to share online in a writer's forum, but must their writings be intermingled with real books in the kindle store? Is there some way to hide them or weed them out when browsing and searching. It's annoying to have to wade through all that garbage which has multiplied like a rat infestation in the Kindle store.
* Kindle and Nook ought to flag books that are self-published. At least then we think to check the book out a bit more closely. For me its the copy editing that makes me gnash my teeth and use words my mother would not approve of!
* I am always searching for new fantasy books, and I hate having to weed through all of the indie books that pop up. It gets really tiresome. It would be nice if you could specify your search for trade pubs. Sigh. I think you can narrow your search by price point and I think this could narrow it down better.
* Why does the Amazon recommended algorithm give me so many indies on my recommended list? I've only bought one and after four "hair tossings" in two pages, I tossed it.
I have to go to page 2 of recommended before I see a single non-indie author. Maybe if there was a choice of publishers or price ranges to select by?
* I haven't used the Kindle store to shop for books since shortly after I got my Kindle. I now buy the Daily Deal if it looks good and buy on recommendations of friends and posters (love the "What Are You Reading" thread). I also get regular emails from the NYT and Goodreads. I have too many books now, so have gotten much pickier about what I buy than 10 months ago when my Kindle was a baby. I don't buy from spammers no matter how they published their books. Other than that, I just want to read good books.
* I wish we could have, at least, a list of "never recommend this author to me."
* I, too, would like to see indies identified in some way. Something people who don't want them can exclude in search and people who do can include them. I was very enthusiastic about Indies when I first got my Kindle. Until I read some truly atrocious ones. Now I'm a lot pickier. But after learning that the indies were using friends and fellow indies to write fake reviews and tag their products incorrectly just to get them to show in a search, I don't even know what to trust anymore to find a good indie book.
AE, I have re-read the list of comments a second time (This time I am not waiting for a late night coffee buzz to wear off).
ReplyDeleteIt seems clear that you are concerned (and with good reason) about how much bad work is out there, and how much potentially good work is out there too soon.
I also agree with your comment about those who post anonymous comments (almost as bad as those who signal a left turn at the very last second). If you use your real name, then it provides motivation to issue a retraction if you have a change of heart.
My earlier comment doesn't reflect the nature of the community. If you feel like removing it, I'm fine with that. If you would like to leave it in place as a cautionary tale for those who surf blogs at two in the morning, I'm ok with that as well.
Best of luck with your upcoming release!
@ae: Thanks for letting me know.
ReplyDelete@Kirsten: Good article to point out. The lack of a gatekeeper for indie books is something I've always seen as a problem. While it's true that traditional publishers put out a certain amount of fluff and dribble, people know they can expect a certain level of quality.
I think a system will fall out for indie books. Certain online reviewers will develop a reputation for reliability. Perhaps agents will morph into "brands" with their own list of approved indie authors. Or authors can set up an organization of approved members whose books meet certain criteria.
There are all kinds of ways it might be done, all with the idea of giving readers a way of filtering out the junk.
I hear you that there is a lot of dreck out there, mainly because self-published authors skip the editorial process, or they don't realize that the first 5 or 6 (8 for me) novels they write are just practice and don't need to see the light of day. Here's my self-pub story:
ReplyDeleteI submitted a book to a traditional publisher once and they rejected it. (Rightly so.) But with a "good" rejection letter asking for more. Two years later, I quit my Evil Day Job and thought, why not write while waiting for a new job? I talked my hubby into giving me one year to experiment. (That was May 2011.)
I needed to prove I could make a living--and fast. No year or more to wait to be picked up by a trad publisher. I asked for editor recommendations, found a professional editor I liked, wrote MASTERS AT ARMS in about three weeks then sent it off to her. The edits were very light, but her suggestions were great, so I added the scenes she wanted, and it went from a novella to a novel (58k) that I published in August to great reviews at Amazon and elsewhere (http://www.amazon.com/dp/B005H4V4UO). (Oh, if you read the Amazon ones, you MUST read the comments in reply to the only 1-star review. Pure entertainment, especially that first one.)
In September, I published the 2nd book in the series (first romance, because the 99-cent book was the intro to the series; no happy endings). Again, rave reviews (no 1-stars this time!) and sales have been phenomenal for a debut author. (I've sold nearly 2,000 copies of book 2 in six weeks.)
Are they typo free? No. In fact, because I had avid fans waiting for book 2 on 9/30, I published it before I'd completed my read-aloud. Needless to say, I had to upload revised versions a couple times before I got it right. (One reviewer gave me 5-stars anyway because I had admitted on Facebook there were flaws I was fixing.)
But a traditional publisher most likely wouldn't have accepted this series. Traditional writers told me you can't publish a prequel before you have several books out in the series already. (Huh?) It's insanity like that that makes me cringe at traditional publishing.
More recently, I've decided that my novels aren't going to be totally stand-alone. I'm tired of rehashing stuff they can read if they just start at the beginning.
Even a romance with two characters who are 25 years apart (and meet when she's only 16—there is NO sexual attraction on his part WHATSOEVER then). But, as a self-pubbed author, I don't have to cave. I can be innovative, write the stories of my heart, and run with it (all the way to the bank).
I'm so sure you'll find my stories/characters compelling I'm offering a 2-day coupon at Smashwords for a free download of MASTERS AT ARMS. Warning: I don't use tons of description; I'm more interested in getting into the heads of characters, not in setting the stage. And you don't have to be into BDSM erotic romances--because there's very little of either BDSM or erotic in the prequel/intro. (Just skip over Sections 2 and 3 if you don't want those parts. The story of Adam and Karla will still be cohesive if you only read sections 1, 4, and 5.)
For your FREE download, go to https://www.smashwords.com/books/view/80282 and use COUPON CODE TP46M.
Lastly, I like being a revolutionary, and that's how I see self-publishing. :)
Please pardon typos, but book 3 is due out next month and I still have 60k to write. Gotta go!
Kally
Thank you Kally for sharing that. I have 5 books ahead of yours. Wait, crap, make the 7. Anyway, I appreciate the free offer. I will buy it when I am finished with the 7. I have so much reading to do! Please, let's be in contact! :)
ReplyDeleteim so willing to suicide..
ReplyDeleteIt's okay to commit self-pub suicide if that is what you wish. I hope you are referring strictly to that...
Delete